FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Phil Phillips]

By way of introduction, I'm an enthusiast for all things in the mineral world and to a lesser extent a collector of specimens, most recently to be found wandering about in the world of garnets. I have followed the mineral world with the usual array of its fascinating and educational literature. My pursuit of the mineralogical sciences and geology has been a hobby rather than based on formal training. It has added and is adding to the richness and pleasure in my life beyond the mere specimen aspect, although the latter does add excitement.

I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum for this particular topic, but then again, I'm not sure it isn't. Let me know.

I wonder what the rest of my fellow enthusiasts are thinking about this issue.

It concerns the possible impact of the legislative initiatives in Arizona involving the thorny issue of illegal immigration . While the solutions to that problem are not simple or straightforward, the recently adopted stance of the State of Arizona towards enforcement seems well beyond reasonable and obviously prone to abuse both on a human and legal basis.

I've attend the Tucson Show as often as possible. I've always been impressed and gratified by the enjoyable stimulating international character of the event along with the varied surprises from the earth. The mineral collecting industry and its offshoots, if I might call it that, is a significant and constant contributer to the economy of Tucson and hence Arizona. I know I've left several buckets of my money there. The reality is that the event(s) success depends on participants feeling comfortable being there.

Given those facts, what are people's feelings about the impact of the present approach to the admittedly real immigration problem in this context? As vendors or customers, is this as big a negative as I'm perceiving it to be? Should we gather a bail out funds in case Jordi leaves his passport back at the hotel?

I'm not seeking a moral imperative or a specific call to action. Ultimately we all as individuals will make decisions in this regard. The Tucson Show itself , given its economic and social realities, would seem to have to come to some position on how to deal with the significance of the tone of the new Arizona immigration law to its interests. It doesn't take a genius to see TGMS as being wedged into a no win position here. Does that mean silence is appropriate given that it's business? If not, what should it be? What can it be?

Hopefully the courts will return us to some better level of balance in dealing with this issue while we wait (and wait) for the Federal Government to come to grips instead of just going to lunch.

I have no facts to back it up, but I suspect the security issues that drive the review processes for entering the United States might already have had a negative impact on the show. Ditto the economic miasma that has recently blanketed everything. The reality of a misdirected coercive immigration enforcement stance might easily further dampen activity in this otherwise delightful and stimulating international event in Tucson.

[Tenney Naumer]

You have raised a valid and very interesting point. Might want to send letters to the gov. and state legislators concerning this. At best, maybe come to some sort of unwritten agreement with the local authorities during the show.

[keldjarn]

Phil,
You have adressed an issue which goes far beyond the recent legislative initiative in Arizona. That is just one symptom of an increasingly hostile government attitude to foreigners in the USA. Being a medical doctor and working in international biotech for the last 20 years I have been visiting the USA regularly for 30 years. Like yourself I have an interest in minerals and mineralogy as a hobby and have used some of my business trips also for visits to most of the Tucson shows since 1991 and marvelled at the relaxed atmosphere and international flavour. The USA has been a great and friendly country to visit - except for the way your authorities have started to handle all foreigners following the start of your former Presidents "war on terror". Even when coming from a country with a much higher GDP pr. capita and standard of living than the USA - including a universal and free health care and education system and 3 % unemployment, you are sometimes treated as a potential illegal third world immigrant by your border officials with constant harassment that can last for so long that your nearly miss your connecting domestic flights. It has become so unpleasent that my wife does not like to come along any more - especially after her expensive perfume - bought at the airport taxfree shop - was "confiscated" (stolen) by a TSA employee from the cheched luggage leaving a note stating that "prohibited goods had been removed".
I heard that a number of foreign dealers lost most of their sales during this years Tucson shows because of unreasonable delays in having their goods cleared through customs.
In my experience the quality and diversity of the Tucson shows have been declining steadily since the turn of the century and the problems experienced by foreign dealers and visitors will surely not improve this trend.
Knut

[Phil Phillips]

[Dean Allum]

Phil,
Exactly which legislative initiative in Arizona are you talking about?
Then, what do you believe is the motivation of Arizonans for passing this legislation?
-Dean

[Phil Phillips]

Knut's perspective is a distillation of the damage ham-handed governmental responses to real issues can have. It made me grimace. The affronts are avoidable and unnecessary.

I'd wager a lot of our fellow mineral enthusiasts have analogous tales of the TSA woven into their experience. We don't seem to have much choice in enduring these indignities if we travel by air. The economic and attitudinal downsides could be mitigated by emphasizing a more nuanced and disciplined approach. There just doesn't seem to be a handle with which to effect positive change .

This is what we experience if we're flying and have a suitcase. In Arizona , much more onerous sanctioned intimidation can occur from just walking around on the street.
The new Arizona immigration enforcement approach is a couple powers of ten more arbitrary and onerous. The impact on the TGMS activities has the potential to be acute and in the very least another unwelcome negative influence stacked upon others.

But given the circumstances and more local theater of play, it looks be more amenable to change (than the TSA) if business level pressures can brought to bear. We're talking jobs and dollars here. Otherwise, I believe the show is going to suffer, as will all who take part in it regardless of which side of the display table we inhabit.

What organized response can be/should be mustered here without shooting ourselves in the crystals?

[Phil Phillips]

[Tracy]

[GneissWare]

The new law comes into play after a police officer has lawful contact with a person. This is being defined in an amendment to the law passed probably today, to mean that the officer had probable cause to stop someone for an infraction. If, upon inquiry, the officer has cause to suspect the person is illegal, they can ask for documentation to make the determination. None of this really exceeds what happens during any law enforcement stop. The main difference is the statute now makes it a state crime (trespassing) to be in the state illegally, making the individual subject to detention for the state crime, and thus allowing the police to remand custody to ICE for the federal immigration violation.

I really don't see how this has any impact on the Tucson show.

The point raised by Knut about TSA is a whole different kettle of fish. The federal government only requires them to fog up a mirror to be hired. They are low skilled and low paid, and are a bane to air travelers, foreign or domestic.

My 2 cents.

[Phil Phillips]

[Phil Phillips]

[Peter Megaw]

When I first saw the heading "The Arizona Issue" I thought the cat was out of the bag on some upcoming issue of MR or Rock and Gem leading up to the TGMS celebration of Arizona's statehood centenniel in 2012. I was of course dismayed to find the same thread that dominated conversation all over Mexico last week when this came out. (They are already reporting a shift of pre-entrants to the Mexican states south of Texas hoping to avoid the realities of Arizona).

As an organizer of the Tucson Show I am dismayed that this may impact our show next year...and beyond...but would encourage everyone to give this a little time to see how it unfolds. It already looks like it cannot be implemented until sometime next fall and it may well be subject to voter ratification...which we can only hope fails (remember the stats for the Phoenix area!). Most fundamentally this usurps power reserved to the Federal government so it is almost certainly doomed to be thrown out when it first hits judicial review. I also ask you to give Tucson a little slack...this would NEVER carry down here!
Phoenix can get away with this since they have more than 70% of the state's residents and run roughshod over the rest of us most of the time. Our governor has to pander to these folks to get elected...not RE-elected mind you, we got her by default when our real and elected governor went to work for Obama in Washington. (I guess by the same pretzel logic that says global warming is responsible for volcanic eruptions in iceland, Obama is to blame for the situation here)

As an Arizona voter I am deeply dismayed by the cynical posturing this inflamatory bill represents. Arizona is nearly bankrupt and we have been stripping funding from our schools and public services to make ends meet. Now we learn we'll give as much or more to the lawyers who will have to defend this nonsense "in our names". In the meantime we will lose income from conventions etc. who will boycott us out of some well-intentioned but misguided sense of political correctness, so this little gesture will cost us a bundle in the long term. The best one can hope for is that it will function as a wake-up call to Washington that we are tired of paying for the federal government's complete abdication of fiscal responsibility for the flood of illegal entrants. More likely it will result in harrassment of innocent citizens as a basis for claiming the police are not committing racial profiling, which of course they obviously will be. (Don't even get me started on the chilling "turn in your neighbor if you think they're illegal" aspects). The Feds are broke too, but this will provide a new weapon of mass distraction to keep us from trying to do anything about that.

In the meantime...back to the rocks!

[John S. White]

Right on Peter! Possibly the best thing written on this subject that I have seen.

[Paul S]

I would like to add to the discussion that this issue has even made it to the Dutch newspapers. The protests against this new legislation is getting a lot of attention, even here in The Netherlands.

I thought I'd lett you all know!

[David Von Bargen]

Peter,
If history is any guide, I would not expect a boycott to have any effect on attendance at the show. There was a boycott of Arizona for the ML King holiday from about 1987-1992. I don't recall the motel halls being less crowded or the local businesses charging normal rates for their services during this period.