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Jim
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 08:03 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Alfredo,
Good to have you back! It's curious that all the documentation over the years for that crystal stated "Japan" when almost everyone who sees it clearly feels it is Russian (although one person insisted it was Minas Gerais). Collector's Edge also felt skeptical enough of the presumed locality to consult with Kiyoshi. Of course, Kiyoshi now believes after careful reflection that the crystal is also Russian.
Thanks for your valuable input on this as well!
Cheers _________________ Jim
MAD about crystals |
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alfredo
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 979
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 09:44 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Jim, Do you happen to know from the label history roughly which decade this piece would have been obtained in Japan? As you know, a lot of minerals end up being labelled with the locality of purchase rather than locality of origin, and I'm wondering whether the crystal could have been Russian, but ended up being sold in Japan?
Here's a really wild thought (totally speculative): Quite a few wealthy "White Russian" refugees escaped to Japan via Siberia at the end of the war between the Reds and the Whites in the early 1920s, bringing their most portable treasures to trade. What if one of them brought some gem crystals? (OK, now you can all laugh at my fertile imagination ;-))
Cheers,
Alfredo |
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Tracy
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 551
Location: Toronto
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 10:03 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Interesting train of thought Alfredo. A slight correction (with apologies because this isn't a history forum): I'm pretty sure that the primary route of escape for these refugees was through Harbin (Manchuria), sometimes by way of Vladivostok, then south to Shanghai. My maternal grandparents were among them.
Tracy _________________ "Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates |
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Jim
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 10:10 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Alfredo,
Let me piece together the label history with some photos, but seriously that is a very interesting and intelligent theory!
More to come!
Thanks _________________ Jim
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chris
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 538
Location: Grenoble
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 10:34 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi,
Interesting information Tracy. Another guess, Manchuria was occupied by the Japanese army between 1931 and 1945. This topaz might have been taking from a Russian who stayed in Manchuria after fleeing Russia ?
Could be interesting to know who is the first name on the owners' list. Jim I'm afraid you'll have a lot of search to do now.
Good luck
Christophe |
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alfredo
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 979
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 10:45 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Thanks Tracy and Christophe for the additional information. Yes, I'm sure you're right, Tracy, that more refugees went south to Shanghai. I know a few went from Vladivostok to Tokyo, and I'd assumed they got there via the trans-Siberian railroad. There was one elderly Russian lady in Tokyo back in my student years who had made a fortune in Tokyo real estate. My paternal grandfather was a White Russian too (hence my surname), but he left westwards, to East Prussia (then part of Germany). |
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Tracy
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 551
Location: Toronto
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Posted: Jul 14, 2008 10:59 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Japan also ocupied Shanghai in the late '30s. Another possibility. _________________ "Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates |
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Jim
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas
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Posted: Jul 19, 2008 10:35 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Alfredo,
Please let me know your email address. I have some material to share related to the blue topaz, and there have been some more developments that only deepen this mystery!
Thanks,
(jim_houran [at] yahoo [dot] com) _________________ Jim
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Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4900
Location: Barcelona
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Posted: Jul 22, 2008 06:43 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Jim, don't be bad, please share also with us the new developments. We are intrigued! ;-)
Jordi |
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Jim
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas
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Posted: Jul 23, 2008 10:41 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Jordi,
One bit of good news is that several people have emailed me privately to express interest and fascination on this subject. This encouragement has motivated to prepare an article about this specimen and the vetting process of its locality.
I'll keep everyone updated!
Cheers, _________________ Jim
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chris
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 538
Location: Grenoble
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Posted: Jul 23, 2008 10:57 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Jim,
Good news. Looking forward the next developments...
Thanks.
Christophe |
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Tony H Gill
Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Liverpool
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Posted: Jul 31, 2008 12:47 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Folks
Jim - I dont want to take over your story board but hope you dont mind me putting the feelers out in this thread as its a very similar problem to yours but with no interesting evidence! This thread has spurred me to question the validity of a locality for a specimen I own - we discussed this in private.
I tend to agree with you and also think my specimen may be a urals topaz, the reason I ask is that it looks fairly similar to yours, so I would like to see what the thoughts are of everyone else? Apologies for the low quality photo.
https://www.mindat.org/photo-150143.html
(link normalized by Jordi)
Regards
Tony |
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keldjarn
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 157
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Posted: Jul 31, 2008 13:28 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Hi Tony,
From the looks of your very nice blue topaz crystal I would have no problems accepting Virgim de Lapa as the locality. A pragmatic point of view would also be that a true blue topaz of that quality from the Urals would probably cost more than one from Virgim de Lapa. So there would be no economic incentive for a deception as in the case of the "Japanese" blue topaz. But in most cases with common minerals like topaz it is very difficult to tell the locality of single crystals by sight only. If you have labels from the 70'ies or later saying Virgim de Lapa, I would stick to that.
Knut |
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lluis
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 711
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Posted: Jul 31, 2008 15:54 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Agreed with Knut.
By the way, opinions about blue Virgen da Lapa topases?
I heard that perhaps irradiated, but that is no more than hearsay...Just extremely curious
Lluís |
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Jim
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 185
Location: Dallas
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Posted: Jul 31, 2008 19:57 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Not that I'm an expert, but Tony's crystal doesn't look like any of the fine blue topazes that I've seen from Virgem da Lapa. It looks more Russian to my eye. _________________ Jim
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John S. White
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Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Aug 01, 2008 04:44 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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I have to disagree quite strenuously with keldjarn, this topaz looks Russian to me. In my experience with Brazilian topazes they tend to have steep chisellike domes on the termination, not flat pinacoids like this one. In this respect they resemble those from the St. Anne's mine, Zimbabwe. Yes, it is also true that many of the Brazilian topazes have been treated, but not all of them. Some of the best came from the Xanda mine, near Virgem da Lapa. The Russian blues are the ones with flat pinacoids. _________________ John S. White
aka Rondinaire |
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Les Presmyk
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 372
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Posted: Aug 01, 2008 09:49 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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I agree with John. When Virgem de Lapa was in its heyday, Jack Lowell was importing a number of the best specimens from there. I was able to see a lot of what he brought into the country and the topaz crystals were as John has described with chisel terminations and sides containing multiple faces. |
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Tony H Gill
Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Liverpool
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Posted: Aug 01, 2008 12:00 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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Wow guys, so the consensus so far seems to be that its a Russian specimen! I must admit I have a fair number of topaz crystals and I had some gut ''feel'' that it may not be Brazilian but I went with what I was told...interesting story to add to yours Jim!!? Anyway off for the weekend look forward to any more on this thread, thanks to everyone so far and thanks Jim for letting me dive in part way through your thread!
Tony |
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keldjarn
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 157
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Posted: Aug 03, 2008 17:55 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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As stated in my post it is in most cases impossible to make accurate judgements about the locality of single crystals of common minerals like topaz visually. I agree that most Brazilian topazes have more chissel-shaped termination - and this is especially the case with the larger crystals from i.e. Virgim de Lapa and Mimoso do Sul. A couple of years ago I sorted through dozens of flats of single, blue topaz crystals from the Limoeiro mine and even if most of them had the chisseled termination, there were also crystals terminated by a pronounced pinacoid. If you look at pictures posted i.e. in Mindat of topaz crystals said to come from Brazil, you will find many also with pronounced pinacoids including a large blue one posted by Rob Lavinsky and said to come from the Xanda mine ( pic. 74779) and a smaller blue one posted by John Betts just said to come from Minas Gerais.Tony Hill has even posted a picture of a 3 cm crystal from Mimoso do Sul which unlike most crystals I have seen from there is blue with a large pinacoid.
I do not disagree with John and others stating that the small, blue topaz crystal in question could also come from the Urals or i.e. St.Annes mine. If that is what the label said, I would have no problems accepting also that. But since you also occasionally see large pinacoidal termination on smaller blue topaz crystals from Brazil, I would not personally change a label from Brazil to the Urals just because such crystal habits are more common there. But if I had ancountered the crystal in an old European collection with no label, I would absolutely have guessed the Urals as the locality. The moral is: take good care of labels and other documents showing the origin of a specimen and if possible pastye a small label with locality information on the specimen itself. |
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John S. White
Site Admin
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1295
Location: Stewartstown, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Aug 04, 2008 04:53 Post subject: Re: blue topaz from Japan |
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While we are at it, perhaps we can arrive at a consensus with respect to the spelling of the locality in Brazil. All of my references (at least those that I trust) spell it Virgem da Lapa, but most of the contributors to this thread appear to prefer Virgim da Lapa. In any case I feel we should take this opportunity to try to agree on the spelling so that readers of this thread can make sure their labels are correct. _________________ John S. White
aka Rondinaire |
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