FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Carles Curto]

I just read, in the last extra-issue of Mineralogical Record, that Miguel Romero mineralogical collection will be sold and removed from Arizona University.
May be Romero's family and some other people will be a little more rich. May be Arizona University will be quite less wise.
The picture of the group... No comment. It remains me (excuse me, please) vultures overflying a death body.

[keldjarn]

I also only know about the fate of the Miguel Romero collection from what I have read in the Mineralogical Record. It is allways a pity when such an important collection leaves the country of origen (Mexico). That had already happened when the collection was transfered to the USA. It has been stated that the most important part of the collection will become the nucleus of a new private museum in Europe. In due course it will probably be included in a public collection in Europe. With the commercial pressure in the USA on universities and museums, and seeing what happened to the famous Pennsylvania collection, I am not sure the future of the Romero collection would have been safer if kept at the University of Arizona. Therefore I think it is difficult to judge at this point what will in the long run best serve the memory of such an important collector.

[Carles Curto]

I don't judge anybody. Simply, I'm personally deceived and sad.

[Les Presmyk]

For Carles to say that he is saddened by the Romero collection leaving the University of Arizona I agree. I, too, was unhappy about it leaving public display and especially the University of Arizona. Then he states he will not judge anyone, after he refers to me, along with others, as vultures, I find to be disingenuous at best. I, along with others, worked very hard to try to keep the collection at the University. In the end, it was the decision of Miguel's wife and children to put the collection up for sale through a mail bid process.

Through the efforts of Rob Lavinsky, over 150 specimens from the Romero collectiion were donated back to the University. There were three or four dealers who bid on the collection and Rob was the only one who provided for specimens to remain at the University. If any of the other dealers had been successful, no specimens would have remained for public display. It was also Rob who paid for the special supplement to the MR to honor Dr. Romero and his legacy.

Carles, you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not agree with it and your characterization of the people who were involved.

[Carles Curto]

No, please, read with attention. Vultures is just an image that came to me when I see the photograph, probably produced more by the specimens that by the persons, and, also maybe, an influence of the films of Indians and cowboys of my youth.
I don't want offend anybody, on the first post I added a clear note ("....It remains me (excuse me, please...")
But Arizona University is clearly impoverished and this fact seems not to be important for nobody. Less culture, less country (rich or not).

[Les Presmyk]

I appreciate your clarification. You are absolutely correct. Moving and dispersing the Romero collection, as with any major collection, chips away at the public legacy left by someone like Dr. Romero. The University of Arizona has been fortunate to receive other major collections and is doing a fine job displaying and providing education to the public. There are thousands of school children who visit the University and 20,000+ who visit the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum in Phoenix, Arizona every year.

The University of Arizona mineral collection is not open everyday at this point because of funding cuts by the State legislature and the University. This situation occured prior to the worsening economy. Something we all need to think about is our commitment to such institutions because it takes $100,000's per year to keep these museums operating, and that does not include funds for specimen acquisition.

[alfredo]

Allow me please to play Devil's Advocate here: Perhaps it is not such a bad thing that this wonderful collection is being broken up and sold to the highest bidders. My old departed friend Dr Russ MacFall (macfallite), who first introduced me to the collecting community, once wrote an article on what best to do with a collection after ones death. After weighing several options, he concluded that breaking up a collection and selling it at auction was the best destiny. That way the largest number of collectors would have the pleasure and honour of owning part of the collection, and each piece would go to the person most likely to want to take good care of it.

We are all happy when a collection is on public display in a fine institution, but we forget how dependant such institutions are on the energy and capacity of their current, mortal, curators. What will happen to the fine collections on display at the Michigan Tech museum, the Los Angeles County museum, or the New York State museum in Albany after their current responsible and energetic curators retire? We hope they continue to be cared for by other capable hands, but there is no guarantee they won't end up covered with dust in some storage shed. In such cases, fine specimens can be better preserved by wealthy private collectors, who may occasionally display them to the rest of us at the TGMS, and eventually recycle them to another institution.

[Gail]

Whether this relates or not, it is about my concept on sentimental collecting. I had the great honor of going to Roz Pellman's home before she sold off her and Norm's collection.
When I saw some of her pieces I bought them because they remind me of the great time I had getting to know this wonderful woman. The 9 pieces we own are a testimony to our affection of Roz, as well as being very welcome additions to our collection and they are incredible in their own right
Every time I look at them I think of Roz. ( We, sadly, never met Norm. )
I cherish these pieces and speak of my first viewing them while in the Pellman home when I was so brand new to collecting minerals. So, call me sentimental, but perhaps I am not the only one that collects pieces for that additional reason?
I hope that what Alfredo says is accurate, and I do believe it often is.
The pieces will be cherished by those that associate Romero with wonderful minerals.

This is where it pays to be social, so you can be invited to see everyone's collections and enjoy seeing those very pieces!
Ho! Ho! Ho!

[Les Presmyk]

Alfredo is correct. We are all just temporary curators of our mineral specimens. I have long advocated both support for our museums but at the same time recognizing they are not the place where all specimens should reside. For example, there has been a lot of hand-wringing over the sale of the Philadelphia Academy of Sciences mineral collection. The reality is that for all those who wanted and expected to see this collection stay together, no one stepped up to donate the millions of dollars to make that happen. This was a collection that had not been on display or available for research for at least 10, and maybe 20 years. I know it was a difficult decision for the Board of Directors but they made it for what they considered was the betterment of the museum.

The Smithsonian has thousands and maybe tens of thousands of specimens that will never see the light of day again. Or, at least not in my lifetime. I understand that museums serve a purpose but they also represent a place where large numbers of specimens can be destroyed in an instant.

Private collectors are at least the equal of their museum counterparts for preserving and displaying specimens. For example, at the Tucson Show, a number of museums bring exhibits, all of which are appreciated and enjoyed. However, for every museum case, there are 15 or 20 from private collectors who speand every bit as much time and in many cases, significantly more time with labelling and bases.

So, while it disconcerting when a great collection gets broken up, especially one like Dr. Romero's, the legacy continues through the collections his specimens now reside and publications like the Mineralogical Record. If the 25 anniversary issue of the MR taught me anything, it was that collections come and go but the books written about them become the real record.

Let us support our museums and their collections. Every one needs your time, money and specimens.

[Tony L. Potucek]

I am not known to be a fence sitter, and so I choose to air my view on this topic, too. I am in total agreement with Alfredo and his late friend, Dr. MacFall. The best thing to do with most collections, if not all, including my own, is to put it back out on the market. There are more than a few collectors out there who erroneously think they have the best and the legacy of the collection they built needs to be protected in a museum. Well, a museum collection is only as safe as the current curator, eh? History has shown this to be the case. I believe my best pieces came from previous collections, by the way, and while nice, are not world beaters. If a curator wants a great piece, let them buy it. I am more than a little weary of the numerous stories of chicanery behind the museum doors.

Sorry, Les, but the image conjured up of vultures chowing down on the remains of something once alive is powerful indeed, even if it was a mineral collection that was very much alive while it was being amassed. Is it correct given the circumstances? Qien sabe? I won't judge, but the image worked for me, especially since I know every one of the people in the picture. And every one in that picture benefitted from the sale in some way, and of course, many of us later benefited by acquiring something from Miguel's dispersed collection (thank you very much). Yes, I, too, can be a vulture given the right circumstances.

[lluis]

Good afternoon

Well, I understand all positions, and in the cas that Les Presmyk says, that the Uni could not afford the maintenance of the collection, then he makes well getting rid of it.

But, and that is a big but, if Dr. Romero donated the collection to the musuem, then the family of Dr. Romero should be the recipient of the collection.

I agree with the feelings of Tony Potucek. Sure that a collector would cheriss them more....... :-)

My uncle donated an art colection to a museum in Barcelona, with the condition that should be in that place, be an unity and be in display.
After three years, the collection was moved, then after two more, again moved to another building, and now resides in the basement of another museum, of course not united, not exhibited.... No one knows what happen with the pieces........

I learned enough from that experience.

With best wishes

Lluís